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Re: [BKARTS] messages to Book Arts-L from museum-security.org



A few of my own thoughts on this topic:

The injunction--which I often hear on this list--to take pertinent discussions off-list as soon as they become animated is puzzling to me. Because someone feels strongly about an issue doesn't preclude its relevance nor its appeal to many readers. The topic at hand is also quite relevant. What I see at the core of this discussion is the validity of Mr. Cremers presentation of material to the readership of this list to encourage an awareness of criminal activity in areas of interest to those on this list. A critique left unanswered must only result in his opting out of sending this list his research. This, it seems to me, can only be harmful. Mr. Tapley is correct is asserting that there is no way Mr. Cremers can reasonably present all of the material, and the fact that the material is subjective should come as no surprise. Personal opinion is always present. This is part of being human. We care about things one way or another and this creeps into our actions. This is normal and good. Mr. Cremers is doing this as well, as far as I can tell. His concern toward the curbing of criminal activities should engender praise not vilification. It is often easier to to denounce something than it is to approve. When we approve we need to defend our position more readily, and this takes more thought and puts us in a more vulnerable position.

Keep the news coming...

Vernon Wiering
On Apr 18, 2005, at 1:17 AM, Museum Security Network / Cultural Property Protection Net (Ton Cremers) wrote:


For the past eight years we maintain a news clipping service about incidents
with cultural property. Every now and then I forward reports to Book Arts-L
that are book or library related (. These reports ALWAYS are from newspapers
and I ALWAYS add the WWW address of these newspapers. I really do not
understand why this has led to personal attacks at me. Thanks for those who
supported me in this, and those who felt a need to attack me, PLEASE do
realize that neither the wording nor the contents of these mailings are mine
but from news agencies, newspapers, or other on-line news sources.


In the posting below I am being critized because those reports are
'hideously incomplete from a journalistic and informational point(s) of
view', and that I should take care of 'additional information as to
location, political and social background'. Hold it! Is this serious Fran,
and do I understand that the forwarded news reports are so much appreciated
that some Book Arts-L readers really would like me to investigate the
backgrounds of each and every newspaper report and grant you the service of
offering the results of my investigations to the list. Wish I could afford
the time and money involved in this kind of research...


The number of my messages:

In eight years I have send 82 messages to Book Arts-L. Meaning less than one
per month. I really do not think that I have been a burden to this list,
apart from the past few days, either directly or indirectly.


The subjectlines of all the messages are available below my signature

Cheers

Ton Cremers

_________________________
Museum Security Network
http://www.museum-security.org/
toncremers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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http://te.verweg.com/pipermail/cpprot/
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http://te.verweg.com/pipermail/msn-list/




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_________________________


-----Original Message-----
From: Book_Arts-L [mailto:BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of fran sendbuehler
Sent: 18 April 2005 01:07
To: BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: messages to Book Arts-L from museum-security.org

Mr Cremers -

I feel compelled to add my .02 $ here as Dr Werner is not
alone in his impression of your mailing list.

As you may recall, i also took exception to a previous
posting of yours on this list, and got barbqued for my
troubles, when in fact the account you "took the trouble" to
post was amazingly incomplete - nowhere in it did you or the
article writer state that guns were used by educated thieves;
indeed, the account sounded as if some lower-class scum had
taken it upon themselves to loot and vandalise the local library.

Subsequent postings, such as the one regarding the library arson (in
England?) and the looting/arson (in India?) have also been
incomplete: the reader has been obliged to go hunting for
additional information as to location, political and social
background... etc etc.

So to summarise: you "take the trouble" to post a
considerable number of terribly/rather/somewhat alarming
stories that are hideously incomplete from a journalistic and
informational points of view, and then blame your readers for
taking exception to your postings, or, worse, take it as a
personal insult when a reader takes exception to the content.

If you expect people to read your postings, which i admit
could possibly be of some value, then you might take the
trouble to make sure they're accurate -- especially if you
don't like people commenting on their validity.

fran sendbuehler.

I have waited a few days before answering the insult below:

"...all of the messages relayed from this "museum-security"
group seem
to contain the same message: "There are evil people(usually
lower-class
or non-European)doing evil things."

Especially the 'lower-class or non-European' part really did hit me
because there is no ground at all for this accusation. Calling our
organization 'this "museum-security" group' already seems to be a
hardly subtle defamation of the free service we offer.

We maintain two mailing lists: the Museum Security Network
mailing list
and the Cultural Property Protection Net mailinglist. Those
of you who
really care are invited to browse our archives at:
http://te.verweg.com/pipermail/cpprot/, and
http://te.verweg.com/pipermail/msn-list/. You will see that
there is no
ground at all for Mr. Werner's weird accusation.

Hundreds of messages about incidents with cultural property
have been
send to our 2000 readers in 85 countries for the past 8 years. Just
very few of those messages have been forwarded by me to Book
Arts-L and
Exlibris because I expected these to be of importance to the
book community.

We do not select our messages on actions by 'lower-class or
non-European'.
Social or ethnical backgrounds in no way are relevant selecting the
information we send. It also by no means is true that
'lower-class or
non-European' are over represented in our messages.
Contrary, we report
a lot about art thefts, illicit excavations and looting in war time.
Most of these criminal acts are performed by, or financed,
directly or
indirectly by well educated Europeans and Americans. Londonm
Brussels,
Paris and Amsterdam are centers of illicit trade in cultural
property.
The USA is a real consumer country of looted antiquities.
So, please do
not try and accuse me of putting focus on 'lower-class or
non-European'.

I do hope that the information Mr. Werner is giving his
students at NYU
and the School of Visual Arts is more adequate and based on
facts than
what he just did on this mailing list.

Ton Cremers



 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Paul T Werner" <paul.werner@xxxxxxx>
 To: <BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
 Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 11:03 AM
 Subject: Re: messages to Book Arts-L from museum-security.org


Actually, all of the messages relayed from this
"museum-security"
group seem to contain the same message: "There are evil
people(usually  > lower-class or non-European)doing evil things."
It's a bit like  > flipping the radio dial and hearing that "In
California a
teacher was
fired for mentioning the Declaration of Independence in his >
classroom." Sure. Whatever.

Paul T Werner, New York

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For all your subscription questions, go to the
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