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Dear Vernon:

I don't quite see the point of an "explanation," since the issues 
appear to be clear to most people on this list, whether they agree or 
not. Maybe if I have time I'll write up an "explanation" on WOID and 
let the list know when it's posted. But you probably won't like it.   

By the way, no one is suggesting Mr. Cremer not send relevant material 
to this list. Hey, this is America.


Paul T Werner, New York
http://theorangepress.com

WOID: A journal of visual language
----- Original Message -----
From: Vernon Wiering <wieringbooks@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Monday, April 18, 2005 9:54 am
Subject: Re: messages to Book Arts-L  from museum-security.org

> The injunction--which I often hear on this list--to take pertinent 
> discussions off-list as soon as they become animated is puzzling 
> to me. 
> Because someone feels strongly about an issue doesn't preclude its 
> relevance nor its appeal to many readers. The topic at hand is 
> also 
> quite relevant.

 What I see at the core of this discussion is the 
> validity of Mr. Cremers presentation of material to the readership 
> of 
> this list to encourage an awareness of criminal activity in areas 
> of 
> interest to those on this list. A critique left unanswered must 
> only 
> result in his opting out of sending this list his research. This, 
> it 
> seems to me, can only be harmful. Mr. Tapley is correct is 
> asserting 
> that there is no way Mr. Cremers can reasonably present all of the 
> material, and the fact that the material is subjective should come 
> as 
> no surprise. Personal opinion is always present. This is part of 
> being 
> human. We care about things one way or another and this creeps 
> into our 
> actions. This is normal and good. Mr. Cremers is doing this as 
> well, as 
> far as I can tell. His concern toward the curbing of criminal 
> activities should engender praise not vilification. It is often 
> easier 
> to to denounce something than it is to approve. When we approve we 
> need 
> to defend our position more readily, and this takes more thought 
> and 
> puts us in a more vulnerable position.
> 
> Keep the news coming...
> 
> Vernon Wiering
> On Apr 18, 2005, at 1:17 AM, Museum Security Network / Cultural 
> Property Protection Net (Ton Cremers) wrote:
> 
> > For the past eight years we maintain a news clipping service 
> about 
> > incidents
> > with cultural property. Every now and then I forward reports to 
> Book 
> > Arts-L
> > that are book or library related (. These reports ALWAYS are 
> from 
> > newspapers
> > and I ALWAYS add the WWW address of these newspapers. I really 
> do not
> > understand why this has led to personal attacks at me. Thanks 
> for 
> > those who
> > supported me in this, and those who felt a need to attack me, 
> PLEASE do
> > realize that neither the wording nor the contents of these 
> mailings 
> > are mine
> > but from news agencies, newspapers, or other on-line news sources.
> >
> > In the posting below I am being critized because those reports are
> > 'hideously incomplete from a journalistic and informational 
> point(s) of
> > view', and that I should take care of 'additional information as to
> > location, political and social background'. Hold it! Is this 
> serious 
> > Fran,
> > and do I understand that the forwarded news reports are so much 
> > appreciated
> > that some Book Arts-L readers really would like me to 
> investigate the
> > backgrounds of each and every newspaper report and grant you the 
> > service of
> > offering the results of my investigations to the list. Wish I 
> could 
> > afford
> > the time and money involved in this kind of research...
> >
> > The number of my messages:
> >
> > In eight years I have send 82 messages to Book Arts-L. Meaning 
> less 
> > than one
> > per month. I really do not think that I have been a burden to 
> this 
> > list,
> > apart from the past few days, either directly or indirectly.
> >
> > The subjectlines of all the messages are available below my 
> signature>
> > Cheers
> >
> > Ton Cremers
> >
> > _________________________
> > Museum Security Network
> > http://www.museum-security.org/
> > toncremers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Archive Cultural Property Protection
> > http://te.verweg.com/pipermail/cpprot/
> > Archive Museum Security Network
> > http://te.verweg.com/pipermail/msn-list/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your keyword search was: "Museum Security Network"
> >
> > Scores with a red icon show confidence in the match between the 
> > document and
> > your search.
> > Search for similar documents by clicking on the red or black 
> icons 
> > next to
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> > Show a short summary for a document by clicking the (summary) link.
> > Documents found by matching keyword prefixes:
> >
> >  86% 100.000 (summary)
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> >  86% I really need help (summary)
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> >  84% Art Stolen From Library (summary)
> >  84% Thieves plunder libraries for profit (summary)
> >  84% Re: Netherlands (summary)
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> >  84% Re: IMPORTANT LIST CHANGES, PLEASE READ (summary)
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> > University (summary)
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Book_Arts-L [mailto:BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> >> Behalf Of fran sendbuehler
> >> Sent: 18 April 2005 01:07
> >> To: BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: messages to Book Arts-L from museum-security.org
> >>
> >> Mr Cremers -
> >>
> >> I feel compelled to add my .02 $ here as Dr Werner is not
> >> alone in his impression of your mailing list.
> >>
> >> As you may recall, i also took exception to a previous
> >> posting of yours on this list, and got barbqued for my
> >> troubles, when in fact the account you "took the trouble" to
> >> post was amazingly incomplete - nowhere in it did you or the
> >> article writer state that guns were used by educated thieves;
> >> indeed, the account sounded as if some lower-class scum had
> >> taken it upon themselves to loot and vandalise the local library.
> >>
> >> Subsequent postings, such as the one regarding the library 
> arson (in
> >> England?) and the looting/arson (in India?) have also been
> >> incomplete: the reader has been obliged to go hunting for
> >> additional information as to location, political and social
> >> background... etc etc.
> >>
> >> So to summarise: you "take the trouble" to post a
> >> considerable number of terribly/rather/somewhat alarming
> >> stories that are hideously incomplete from a journalistic and
> >> informational points of view, and then blame your readers for
> >> taking exception to your postings, or, worse, take it as a
> >> personal insult when a reader takes exception to the content.
> >>
> >> If you expect people to read your postings, which i admit
> >> could possibly be of some value, then you might take the
> >> trouble to make sure they're accurate -- especially if you
> >> don't like people commenting on their validity.
> >>
> >> fran sendbuehler.
> >>
> >>> I have waited a few days before answering the insult below:
> >>>
> >>> "...all of the messages relayed from this "museum-security"
> >> group seem
> >>> to contain the same message: "There are evil people(usually
> >> lower-class
> >>> or non-European)doing evil things."
> >>>
> >>> Especially the 'lower-class or non-European' part really did 
> hit me
> >>> because there is no ground at all for this accusation. Calling 
our
> >>> organization 'this "museum-security" group' already seems to 
> be a
> >>> hardly subtle defamation of the free service we offer.
> >>>
> >>> We maintain two mailing lists: the Museum Security Network
> >> mailing list
> >>> and the Cultural Property Protection Net mailinglist. Those
> >> of you who
> >>> really care are invited to browse our archives at:
> >>> http://te.verweg.com/pipermail/cpprot/, and
> >>> http://te.verweg.com/pipermail/msn-list/. You will see that
> >> there is no
> >>> ground at all for Mr. Werner's weird accusation.
> >>>
> >>> Hundreds of messages about incidents with cultural property
> >> have been
> >>> send to our 2000 readers in 85 countries for the past 8 years. 
> Just>>> very few of those messages have been forwarded by me to Book
> >> Arts-L and
> >>> Exlibris because I expected these to be of importance to the
> >> book community.
> >>>
> >>> We do not select our messages on actions by 'lower-class or
> >> non-European'.
> >>> Social or ethnical backgrounds in no way are relevant 
> selecting the
> >>> information we send. It also by no means is true that
> >> 'lower-class or
> >>> non-European' are over represented in our messages.
> >> Contrary, we report
> >>> a lot about art thefts, illicit excavations and looting in war 
> time.>>> Most of these criminal acts are performed by, or financed,
> >> directly or
> >>> indirectly by well educated Europeans and Americans. Londonm
> >> Brussels,
> >>> Paris and Amsterdam are centers of illicit trade in cultural
> >> property.
> >>> The USA is a real consumer country of looted antiquities.
> >> So, please do
> >>> not try and accuse me of putting focus on 'lower-class or
> >> non-European'.
> >>>
> >>> I do hope that the information Mr. Werner is giving his
> >> students at NYU
> >>> and the School of Visual Arts is more adequate and based on
> >> facts than
> >>> what he just did on this mailing list.
> >>>
> >>> Ton Cremers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>  ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>  From: "Paul T Werner" <paul.werner@xxxxxxx>
> >>>>  To: <BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>  Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 11:03 AM
> >>>>  Subject: Re: messages to Book Arts-L from museum-security.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Actually, all of the messages relayed from this
> >> "museum-security"
> >>>>> group seem to contain the same message: "There are evil
> >>>> people(usually  > lower-class or non-European)doing evil 
things."
> >>>> It's a bit like  > flipping the radio dial and hearing that "In
> >>>> California a
> >>>> teacher was
> >>>>> fired for mentioning the Declaration of Independence in his  >
> >>>> classroom." Sure. Whatever.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Paul T Werner, New York
> >>>
> >>>              ***********************************************
> >>>      The Bonefolder: an e-journal for the bookbinder and book 
> artist>>>
> >>>              For all your subscription questions, go to the
> >>>                       Book_Arts-L FAQ and Archive.
> >>>
> >>>                   Both at: <http://www.philobiblon.com>
> >>>              ***********************************************
> >>
> >>              ***********************************************
> >>      The Bonefolder: an e-journal for the bookbinder and book 
> artist>>
> >>              For all your subscription questions, go to the
> >>                       Book_Arts-L FAQ and Archive.
> >>
> >>                   Both at: <http://www.philobiblon.com>
> >>              ***********************************************
> >
> >              ***********************************************
> >      The Bonefolder: an e-journal for the bookbinder and book 
artist
> >
> >              For all your subscription questions, go to the
> >                       Book_Arts-L FAQ and Archive.
> >
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> >
> >
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>     The Bonefolder: an e-journal for the bookbinder and book artist
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>             For all your subscription questions, go to the
>                      Book_Arts-L FAQ and Archive.
>                                    
>                  Both at: <http://www.philobiblon.com>
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             For all your subscription questions, go to the
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