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Re: [BKARTS] BOOK_ARTS-L Digest - 19 Oct 2006 to 20 Oct 2006 (#2006-50)



Dear Ann,

Yes thanks for pointing that out I am getting my terms mixed up.Yes we have
tried with the polyester interfacing/stabilizer & our experience confirms
what you say about the unreliability of the adhesive. Good so now I no
longer have to think that maybe there is a better quality one out there that
I can use or that maybe I'm doing it wrong & can happily give up the search

Will try the batting for the padding.

My student's leather is definitely not bookbinding leather as it was bought
locally in Hong Kong. It's hard to convince the students that it's not worth
it to use cheap leathers available here as opposed to buying expensive
leathers & paying for the postage which can cost from usd 40 up. It goes
back to Dave Allen's comment about how concerned one is about the ephemeral
quality of one's work. Generally they just want to make something that looks
good right now.

Thanks for the answers

Louise




> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Fri, 20 Oct 2006 01:13:48 -0700
> From:    Ann Kronenberg <annkronenberg@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: FW: [BKARTS] A few questions
> 
> Louise--
> When you say that you have used polyester batting to
> line fabric to turn it into bookcloth, it makes me
> think that you are confusing polyester interfacing or
> stabilizer with polyester batting. Even the thinnest
> polyester batting is a minimum of 1/2 inch thick, but
> compresses when bookcloth is stretched across it.  I
> can't imagine anyone using it to line fabric to turn
> it into bookcloth, although it's a good choice for
> padding. The iron-on adhesives used on both batting
> and interfacing are very unreliable most of the time
> because they are generally intended to adhere to the
> fabric only temporarily until it is sewn in place
> permanently as it would be in a garment or quilt.
> Whether to use felt or batting depends on the effect
> that your student wants. Batting would likely make a
> softer padding and felt a firmer padding. If I wanted
> to use batting, I would use bonded polyester rather
> than cotton because it shifts and "wads" less than
> cotton, so that if you were not gluing the cloth to it
> (and just gluing the turn-ins) it would be more likely
> to remain in an even layer and not get lumpy with use
> and handling. I would purchase a non-adhesive batting,
> and then apply PVA to the binder's board and smooth
> the batting on.
> 
> I noticed that no one has yet commented on the
> question concerning the ostrich leather. I know
> extremely little about leather binding, but since no
> one who has that expertise has commented, I'd like to
> take a guess at what the problem is. There are
> different tanning methods. Leather that is tanned for
> wet-forming or bookbinding is tanned in such a way
> that is remains soft and pliable after it has been
> wetted and dried. Leather than is tanned for garments
> or shoes is tanned differently and gets stiff, hard,
> and shrinks after it gets wet and dries--like when a
> pair of non-waterproof leather shoes gets after
> getting soaked. Your student's leather may not be
> bookbinding leather. The appropriate question may be
> "Is there a way to use garment or shoe leather in
> bookbinding?" The leather being ostrich may have no
> relevance.
> 

>              ***********************************************
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Fri, 20 Oct 2006 08:37:48 -0500
> From:    Kathleen Garness <kmgfinearts@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: FW: [BKARTS] A few questions
> 
> I agree with what Ann says. I started out as a fiber artist and =20
> worked in that media for over 20 years and I agree about the =20
> applications of polyester batting vs. felt and cotton batting. Cotton =20=
> 
> will lump up and is kind of difficult to control.
> 
> Re: the leathere.
> Is it possible to soften up the ostrich leather with something like =20
> mink oil, which is often used to waterproof and soften shoes? You'd =20
> have to clean it carefully off the turn-ins, of course, before =20
> completing the binding.
> 
> Kathy G


------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:59:22 -0700
From:    Dave Allen <allen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: FW: [BKARTS] A few questions

Hi Kathy,
Any oil based softener would eventually allow the glue or paste to let
go. It would not be a good idea.
When binding a book I always try to remember that I am not binding this
book for today or tomorrow but for 100-200 years from now. I try to use
methods that are reversible and yet long lasting. "Yes Paste" comes to
mind as an example. Although it is touted as being "pH neutral" and
"acid free" in an attempt to get people to use it for paper and book
arts it yellows with age and so is unsuitable.
If you either do not care about the ephemeral quality of your work, or
indeed, want it to be ephemeral, then don't worry about the above
suggestion.
Hope this helps,
Dave

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:25:49 +0800
> From:    Louise Garnaut <louise@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: FW: [BKARTS] A few questions
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions so far. We will follow up. Now understand that
> foam is the worst choice. Felt is easy to get & inexpensive in Hong Kong.
> 
> Susan we have tried with the polyester batting more as aa approach to linin=
> g
> fabric to turn it into a bookcloth rather than for padding purposes as it i=
> s
> a very straightforward solution but have had mixed results with the adhesiv=
> e
> sometimes not adhering, sometimes separating in sections at a later stage.
> The students love to use the fine Japanese silks and cottons that look like
> they have been hand painted (not sure if they have been) & we've had no luc=
> k
> in getting them to adhere evenly so I'm not sure if it's something to do
> with the silk, if it's had a specific treatment process or the quality of
> adhesive used here or if the adhesive doesn't last well in our tropical
> humid environment. We bought the battings from different suppliers in
> different weights but it seemed to make no difference.
> 
> Has anyone used something like reemay (non woven spun bound polyester) as a
> lining for fabrics. BTW I have looked through the archives on the issue of
> making bookcloths & found it very useful.
> 
> We also will try ironing the polyester batting to the boards & then lining
> with paper as has been suggested
> 
> Regards & thanks
> 
> Louise
> 
> 
> Dear Louise --
> 
> I don't know what's available to you in HK, but the polyester quilt batting
> comes in a fusible form. The adhesive is already on one surface and you
> can iron it on to whatever (the boards?)
> 
> Various battings and non-woven interfacings come in different weights and
> thicknesses, they are inert, and have a much longer life than foam (which
> can break down over time).  They can be applied with spray adhesive.
> 
> I don't do binding myself, but many of the "fabric arts" technologies are
> transferable to book arts!
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> Susan
> 
> 
> 
> Susan Fatemi
> sjfatemi@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> At 03:23 AM 10/19/2006, you wrote:
>> Dear All,
>> ...
>> Another student wants to put padding underneath fabric &/or leather on the
>> book covers. What type & size of material (foam?) is most commonly used.
>> When we have used thin foam in the past we=B9ve had difficulties adhering th=
> e
>> fabric to it & have usually only managed to stretch the fabric over & glue
>> only on the turn ins. This doesn=B9t seem to be a very strong way of binding=
>  a
>> book. Also is it better to take the foam or padding material right to the
>> covering board edge. I saw in the archive that someone had suggested felt
>> covered with thin chipboard (would this be archival) or quilt batting. For
>> both of these how does one manage the gluing
> 
> 
> 
> 

> 
> 
> On Oct 20, 2006, at 3:13 AM, Ann Kronenberg wrote:
> 
>> Louise--
>> When you say that you have used polyester batting to
>> line fabric to turn it into bookcloth, it makes me
>> think that you are confusing polyester interfacing or
>> stabilizer with polyester batting. Even the thinnest
>> polyester batting is a minimum of 1/2 inch thick, but
>> compresses when bookcloth is stretched across it.  I
>> can't imagine anyone using it to line fabric to turn
>> it into bookcloth, although it's a good choice for
>> padding. The iron-on adhesives used on both batting
>> and interfacing are very unreliable most of the time
>> because they are generally intended to adhere to the
>> fabric only temporarily until it is sewn in place
>> permanently as it would be in a garment or quilt.
>> Whether to use felt or batting depends on the effect
>> that your student wants. Batting would likely make a
>> softer padding and felt a firmer padding. If I wanted
>> to use batting, I would use bonded polyester rather
>> than cotton because it shifts and "wads" less than
>> cotton, so that if you were not gluing the cloth to it
>> (and just gluing the turn-ins) it would be more likely
>> to remain in an even layer and not get lumpy with use
>> and handling. I would purchase a non-adhesive batting,
>> and then apply PVA to the binder's board and smooth
>> the batting on.
>> 
>> I noticed that no one has yet commented on the
>> question concerning the ostrich leather. I know
>> extremely little about leather binding, but since no
>> one who has that expertise has commented, I'd like to
>> take a guess at what the problem is. There are
>> different tanning methods. Leather that is tanned for
>> wet-forming or bookbinding is tanned in such a way
>> that is remains soft and pliable after it has been
>> wetted and dried. Leather than is tanned for garments
>> or shoes is tanned differently and gets stiff, hard,
>> and shrinks after it gets wet and dries--like when a
>> pair of non-waterproof leather shoes gets after
>> getting soaked. Your student's leather may not be
>> bookbinding leather. The appropriate question may be
>> "Is there a way to use garment or shoe leather in
>> bookbinding?" The leather being ostrich may have no
>> relevance.
>> 
>> Ann
>

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