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Re: [BKARTS] BOOK_ARTS-L Digest - 30 Jan 2007 to 31 Jan 2007 (#2007-31)



I address this question to all who love book art:

Am I a heretic to state that there is no way of ever knowing whether our works can actually said to be 'archival' ?

-Especially when there is no reliable governance over the products we are using as to their reliability. We purchase and use all kinds of solvents, glues, inks, papers, materials which I do not believe are presently effectively regulated. Our government agencies have failed the public over and when it comes to setting standards or enforcing them. This goes for the food we eat, the clothing we wear, our drugs & medications, and all manner of products and goods we rely on. What makes us believe that the situation is any different when it comes to this attribute we aspire to: making our art 'archival'? Perhaps this aspiration this Emperor has no clothes!

Norman Shapiro, Book Artist
http://ufemisms.com

330 W 28 St. Apt 7A
New York, NY 10001
On Feb 1, 2007, at 12:00 AM, BOOK_ARTS-L automatic digest system wrote:
**********************************
Date:    Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:52:17 -0800
From:    collectedbooks <collectedbooks@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: reversible, archival glues

AMEN!

Thanks Brian..., think you hit the nail on the head. I just don't like
working with Animal Glue, it stains everything it touches, and is so messy.
Great for making "FLY PAPER".


Belgian Rice Starch Paste has changed my life.

PVA is great for "quick" repairs on general stock though, couldn't live
without it.

John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Maloney" <b.maloney@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [BKARTS] reversible, archival glues


I wouldn't include Animal Glue in "archival". It's a protein glue and is
both water-soluble and thermoplastic, but it is acidic and breaks down
itself and all materials it's in direct contact with in time. It's also
prone to acid burn paper when used on turn-ins and such. There are no
really great PVA's that I've used that are completely reversible. PVA is
thermoplastic, but it's a nuisance to deal with in conservation. Great for
the quick grab, though. Wheat Paste and other cellulose starches (like
rice) are completely reversible and archival and stable.
Brian Maloney
Bookbinder & Conservator
Toronto


Well, the obvious ones are wheat paste and hot glue--made from horses'
hooves or animal skins. They've been used for centuries and survive and
continue to do their jobs pretty well over the time span.
Signa


-----Original Message-----
From: Book_Arts-L [mailto:BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
Kathleen Garness
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:14 AM
To: BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: reversible, archival glues


So, again, thanks for all the informative posts. Are there any tried- and-true glues that seem to have remained stable and archival? Are there ways of testing, accelerating aging conditions so you can anticipate what products will do over time? I hear good things about Jade. I had no idea there were so many different glues out there!

Thanks,

Kathy



***********************************************
The Bonefolder, Vol. 3, No. 1, Fall 2006 Now Online at
<http://www.philobiblon.com/bonefolder>
Guild of Book Workers' 100th
Anniversary Exhibition Online - Catalog Available
<http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/gbw/gallery/100anniversary/>
For all your subscription questions, go
to the
Book_Arts-L FAQ and Archive.
See <http://www.philobiblon.com> for full information
***********************************************



*********************************************** The Bonefolder, Vol. 3, No. 1, Fall 2006 Now Online at <http://www.philobiblon.com/bonefolder>

Guild of Book Workers' 100th Anniversary Exhibition Online - Catalog Available
<http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/gbw/gallery/100anniversary/>


             For all your subscription questions, go to the
                      Book_Arts-L FAQ and Archive.
          See <http://www.philobiblon.com> for full information
             ***********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:10:33 -0800
From:    Deanna Jay Chu Nim <falada@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: reversible, archival glues

A book artist friend of mine asked me once to bring some English
flour back to California
for her, as that flour has more gluten. Just a cautionary tale: at
Heathrow we were searched
thoroughly. It seems they thought the flour could be part of an
explosive device.

Deanna


On Jan 30, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Signa Houghteling wrote:


Well, the obvious ones are wheat paste and hot glue--made from horses'
hooves or animal skins.  They've been used for centuries and
survive and
continue to do their jobs pretty well over the time span.
Signa

-----Original Message-----
From: Book_Arts-L [mailto:BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
Kathleen Garness
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:14 AM
To: BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: reversible, archival glues


So, again, thanks for all the informative posts. Are there any tried- and-true glues that seem to have remained stable and archival? Are there ways of testing, accelerating aging conditions so you can anticipate what products will do over time? I hear good things about Jade. I had no idea there were so many different glues out there!

Thanks,

Kathy


Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 06:39:52 -0500 From: "Peter D. Verheyen" <verheyen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: reversible, archival glues

Everything degrades over time, even us. How quickly things degrade
and what the net effect is varies greatly though. In the pantheon of
adhesives paste and gelatin are among the best and most stable and effective.


But doesn't gelatin degrade over time, too?

I really don't find any adhesives terribly messy, except perhaps that "tube" of liquid nails that exploded on me (not book related). Ultimately, it really just comes down to facility in working with adhesives, neatness, ...

Bugs, they can be attracted to certain adhesives. They also like the
starches in paper and book cloth. On the other hand, their presence
is also a factor of environment. Keep things so they don't like
coming around and they largely won't. Of course, if you live in the
tropics you've got other issues as well. I don't recommend adding
thymol to anything. As for acidity, if you're really concerned you
could buffer the paste. Ultimately though, I think sound technique
and structure are going to contribute more to the well-being of the
item than if the pH of the paste is 6.5 or 7.5.

Bottom line, paste and gelatin are among the best and most stable and
effective.  As with all things, it comes down to knowing how to make
and use them.

p.



__________________________________

Peter D. Verheyen
Bookbinder & Conservator, PA - AIC
<verheyen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
The Book Arts Web & Book_Arts-L Listserv
<http://www.philobiblon.com>
The Bonefolder: an e-journal for the bookbinder and book artist
<http://www.philobiblon.com/bonefolder>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:36:25 -0500
From:    Talas <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: reversible, archival glues

This is both an interesting and endless discussion. People always ask me,
should I buffer my wheat paste with calcium carbonate? And my feeling is
no, which always takes us on an endless discussion as to why, since we
(Talas) openly state that it is acidic in its natural form.


The testing of pH on modern materials has been both a very useful and also a
difficult thing to manage. The words archival, acid free, etc are used
quite recklessly these days, with few people really understanding what they
mean. In theory having something that is pH neutral is beneficial, but this
is easily achieved through modification with chemicals, but would you rather
have a lesser quality base material modified to be pH neutral (acid-free);
or something that may not be pH neutral (acid-free) but made of a material
known to have great long term stability?


Just looking at the numbers, the first choice may seem better, but is it
really? A good example of this is the Davey Acid Free Binders Board. Here
you have a board that is technically pH neutral, but it is made from almost
100% recycled material, with lignin content commonly between 70-90%. It's
acid free, but can you really consider it a product suitable for long term,
conservation quality work? I would say not. The same is true with most of
your common office paper now labeled as acid free, and so forth.


Getting back to the wheat paste, this is a product that has been in use for
certainly hundreds of years, and we understand through our own eyes how it
behaves over time. Yes it's pH in a dissolved state is acidic, but it has
shown to be very stable, reversible, and effective from its history. Is it
better to add a buffering agent to increase the pH? Depends on who you ask,
many would say yes, but I would think most would say no. Why disrupt the
natural balance of the product with an internal "struggle" if you will,
pushing the pH from its natural resting state.


I haven't even touched upon the PVA's, and not sure what else needs to be
said. There are certainly MANY manufacturers out there of these adhesives,
and it is unfair to say that manufacturers don't care - they do about the
industry they serve - which is most of the time not ours. The Jade 403 was
developed for the food packaging industry, but was uncovered by some
conservators many years ago who found it to be very favorable for their
needs as well. However changes in this product have been dictated many
times by the FDA and out of the hands of the actual manufacturer. So its
not as always clear as it seems who makes the decisions as to product
changes.


So to step down from my soap box I will say, just be careful, and do what
feels right. Do as much research as possible, and share experiences both
with your peers as well as with your suppliers.


Regards,
Aaron Salik

Talas
20 West 20th Street
New York, NY 10011
212-219-0770 Phone
212-219-0735 Fax
http://talasonline.com

             ***********************************************
         The Bonefolder, Vol. 3, No. 1, Fall 2006 Now Online at
                 <http://www.philobiblon.com/bonefolder>

Guild of Book Workers' 100th Anniversary Exhibition Online - Catalog Available
<http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/gbw/gallery/100anniversary/>


             For all your subscription questions, go to the
                      Book_Arts-L FAQ and Archive.
          See <http://www.philobiblon.com> for full information
             ***********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:07:54 -0800
From:    Ann Kronenberg <annkronenberg@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Papers for Paste Paper

Kathy--

Many people use Mohawk Superfine (available from any
paper or bookbinding supplier) for paste paper.

I personally like bristol paper as my "standard" paper
for making paste papers (many manufacturers make
bristol papers). It comes in several thicknesses, so
that I can choose the weight according to what I'm
using the finished paper for. 1-ply or 2-ply is fine
for covering boards and boxes. The edges of 1-ply tend
to curl when it drys so that 2-ply which dries flatter
is easier to measure and cut. It also comes in
different surfaces, in 100% cotton, sulphite pulp,
sulphur-free, etc., and is available at any art
supplier as well as paper and bookbinding suppliers.

I also love to use Rives Lightweight or Heavyweight,
but many good quality printmaking papers will work
well.

The surface texture and absorbancy of the paper
influences the way the combs glide over the paper and
the look of the finished paper. You should start by
buying a few sheets of each of several different
papers and experiment to see what papers you like to
use. Since you mention that you have watercolor paper,
try lightweight watercolor paper. I have also heard of
people using Asian papers (aka rice paper or mullberry
paper) for making paste paper.

The way you know that a paper is inappropriate for
paste paper is if little balls of pulp form on the
surface of the paper (like the "pills" on an old
sweater or cotton shirt) or it tears when you pull the
comb across the paper. However, I've even successfully
used newsprint to make paste-paper giftwrapping paper.

Ann

--- Kathleen Garness <kmgfinearts@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

But doesn't gelatin degrade over time, too? I have
purchased
watercolor paper - Arches, 160lb 100% rag - and have
had the gelatin
sizing degrade after a few years of non-use, when I
went back to
stretch and paint on them. I've always wondered why
they did that...

I'd be very interested to learn  more about using
gelatin (in spite
of my experiences with my Arches paper, and since
there might be more
in the sizing that can degrade besides the gelatin)
as an adhesive...

Also, I'm looking for a good source for paper for
paste papers. I
took a class in it a couple of years ago and would
like to give it
another try. My teacher, Barb Korbel, said that not
all papers were
really suitable to it.  They needed to have a fine,
tight grain and
not fall apart when wet through and worked with the
combs. I was
thinking that paper used for marbled endpapers might
be suitable?
Where would one find those?

Thanks,

Kathy


On Jan 30, 2007, at 7:04 PM, Peter D. Verheyen wrote:

In terms of "animal glue," I would say "it
depends." If you buy the
really dark, medicinal smelling loaves or pearls
you're likely to
invite trouble. Made fresh from food grade gelatin
(that is what
hide glue really is) and not allowed to burn in
the pot due to
extensive and prolonged overheating (the process
which renders it
acidic) it is actually an excellent and sound
adhesive having great
tack and flexibility (provided you don't blop it
on too thickly).
It is also reversible in water and was
traditionally used as a
sizing agent in paper, papers which have survived
the ages quite
well. As with most things in this field of ours,
it's as much the
(mis)application of materials and technique that
cause problems in
the long term as anything else.

p.

I wouldn't include Animal Glue in "archival".
It's a protein glue
and is both water-soluble and thermoplastic, but
it is acidic and
breaks down itself and all materials it's in
direct contact with
in time. It's also prone to acid burn paper when
used on turn-ins
and such. There are no really great PVA's that
I've used that are
completely reversible. PVA is thermoplastic, but
it's a nuisance
to deal with in conservation. Great for the quick
grab, though.
Wheat Paste and other cellulose starches (like
rice) are
completely reversible and archival and stable.
Brian Maloney
Bookbinder & Conservator
Toronto


***********************************************
         The Bonefolder, Vol. 3, No. 1, Fall 2006
Now Online at

<http://www.philobiblon.com/bonefolder>

Guild of Book Workers' 100th Anniversary Exhibition
Online - Catalog Available


<http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/gbw/gallery/100anniversary/>

For all your subscription questions, go to the Book_Arts-L FAQ and Archive. See <http://www.philobiblon.com> for full information

***********************************************





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             ***********************************************
         The Bonefolder, Vol. 3, No. 1, Fall 2006 Now Online at
                 <http://www.philobiblon.com/bonefolder>

Guild of Book Workers' 100th Anniversary Exhibition Online - Catalog Available
<http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/gbw/gallery/100anniversary/>


             For all your subscription questions, go to the
                      Book_Arts-L FAQ and Archive.
          See <http://www.philobiblon.com> for full information
             ***********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:07:23 -0600
From:    Kathleen Garness <kmgfinearts@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Papers for Paste Paper

Thanks!! I've done newsprint sorts of things with the kids I teach
but have really been stumped about nice paper sources. This is great!

Kathy


On Jan 31, 2007, at 5:07 PM, Ann Kronenberg wrote:


Kathy--

Many people use Mohawk Superfine (available from any
paper or bookbinding supplier) for paste paper.

I personally like bristol paper as my "standard" paper
for making paste papers (many manufacturers make
bristol papers). It comes in several thicknesses, so
that I can choose the weight according to what I'm
using the finished paper for. 1-ply or 2-ply is fine
for covering boards and boxes. The edges of 1-ply tend
to curl when it drys so that 2-ply which dries flatter
is easier to measure and cut. It also comes in
different surfaces, in 100% cotton, sulphite pulp,
sulphur-free, etc., and is available at any art
supplier as well as paper and bookbinding suppliers.

I also love to use Rives Lightweight or Heavyweight,
but many good quality printmaking papers will work
well.

The surface texture and absorbancy of the paper
influences the way the combs glide over the paper and
the look of the finished paper. You should start by
buying a few sheets of each of several different
papers and experiment to see what papers you like to
use. Since you mention that you have watercolor paper,
try lightweight watercolor paper. I have also heard of
people using Asian papers (aka rice paper or mullberry
paper) for making paste paper.

The way you know that a paper is inappropriate for
paste paper is if little balls of pulp form on the
surface of the paper (like the "pills" on an old
sweater or cotton shirt) or it tears when you pull the
comb across the paper. However, I've even successfully
used newsprint to make paste-paper giftwrapping paper.

Ann

--- Kathleen Garness <kmgfinearts@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

But doesn't gelatin degrade over time, too? I have
purchased
watercolor paper - Arches, 160lb 100% rag - and have
had the gelatin
sizing degrade after a few years of non-use, when I
went back to
stretch and paint on them. I've always wondered why
they did that...

I'd be very interested to learn  more about using
gelatin (in spite
of my experiences with my Arches paper, and since
there might be more
in the sizing that can degrade besides the gelatin)
as an adhesive...

Also, I'm looking for a good source for paper for
paste papers. I
took a class in it a couple of years ago and would
like to give it
another try. My teacher, Barb Korbel, said that not
all papers were
really suitable to it.  They needed to have a fine,
tight grain and
not fall apart when wet through and worked with the
combs. I was
thinking that paper used for marbled endpapers might
be suitable?
Where would one find those?

Thanks,

Kathy


On Jan 30, 2007, at 7:04 PM, Peter D. Verheyen wrote:

In terms of "animal glue," I would say "it
depends." If you buy the
really dark, medicinal smelling loaves or pearls
you're likely to
invite trouble. Made fresh from food grade gelatin
(that is what
hide glue really is) and not allowed to burn in
the pot due to
extensive and prolonged overheating (the process
which renders it
acidic) it is actually an excellent and sound
adhesive having great
tack and flexibility (provided you don't blop it
on too thickly).
It is also reversible in water and was
traditionally used as a
sizing agent in paper, papers which have survived
the ages quite
well. As with most things in this field of ours,
it's as much the
(mis)application of materials and technique that
cause problems in
the long term as anything else.

p.

I wouldn't include Animal Glue in "archival".
It's a protein glue
and is both water-soluble and thermoplastic, but
it is acidic and
breaks down itself and all materials it's in
direct contact with
in time. It's also prone to acid burn paper when
used on turn-ins
and such. There are no really great PVA's that
I've used that are
completely reversible. PVA is thermoplastic, but
it's a nuisance
to deal with in conservation. Great for the quick
grab, though.
Wheat Paste and other cellulose starches (like
rice) are
completely reversible and archival and stable.
Brian Maloney
Bookbinder & Conservator
Toronto


__________________________________

Peter D. Verheyen
Bookbinder & Conservator, PA - AIC
<verheyen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
The Book Arts Web & Book_Arts-L Listserv
<http://www.philobiblon.com>
The Bonefolder: an e-journal for the bookbinder
and book artist
<http://www.philobiblon.com/bonefolder>



***********************************************
The Bonefolder, Vol. 3, No. 1, Fall 2006 Now Online at
<http://www.philobiblon.com/bonefolder>
Guild of Book Workers' 100th Anniversary Exhibition Online - Catalog Available
<http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/gbw/gallery/100anniversary/>
For all your subscription questions, go to the
Book_Arts-L FAQ and Archive.
See <http://www.philobiblon.com> for full information
***********************************************



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