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Re: [BKARTS] Re SPOD Books in the bookart realm ?? !!

Greetings all  -
Chad, you touched the nerve that needs the response- (respectfully and in
good humor of course)

While I agree with a lot of what you pointed out and think you make a
great argument with the giclee print issue, I cannot agree with your
definition of an artist book.  You asked: "Are artist books about content
or form or function?" and said, "I think the latter two mostly".  I
respectfully disagree, I think artist books consider all three equally.
One can have a book which has fantastic form, and functions well, but
with weak content it becomes a one-liner, something which does not draw
the "reader" back to the book.  But if there is strong content, even if
it is simple, it is worth a second read. I'm thinking of Ron King's "Roll
over Baby" so simple, but the content is a big part of the success of the
book. You mention that fine press books succeed in all three, yet my
impression of "fine press books" is that they are mostly in the form of
the codex. The form is not really considered, it is assumed. Many book
artists do letter press for their books - those are not the ones I'm
talking about. I'm talking about the beautifully printed, on fantastic
paper, leather or cloth bound, books of poetry, or prints and short text.
Now, to relate this to the overall discussion of SPODs - I think that the
intention of the artist is another part that needs to be considered. Yes
to good quality paper, and printing etc, but since there are limitations
of this medium (presently), the artist has to work within those
limitations.  Do we consider Buzz Spector's book about hands an artist
book? (I just moved and can't find this book in the many boxes - so I'm
sorry but I don't have the title). This book, even as a SPOD, always
draws me back in. I've looked through it many times and am always finding
new things in it.  But it is a mass-produced book. What is the intention
of the artist? Doesn't that become a factor in the choice of production?
Edition size as well? 

This is a great discussion. 
And just so that I don't post fifteen responses:

I also really like the idea of producing the second and third edition as
SPODs, can't remember who said, it but it was a while back.

Tara Bryan - thanks so much for posting that fabulous video. Is there
anyone who has one made in this century?  It would be great to compare
notes about how things have changed. 

And go Mary T!  Thanks for redefining "how" we should be discussing
artist books. 

And finally - because of this discussion: FYI - for those of you in the
Philadelphia area, Ed Ruscha is speaking at the Fabric Workshop of Friday
Oct 3rd.

Hope this finds you all well,

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Chad Pastotnik"
  To: BOOK_ARTS-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: Re: [BKARTS] Re SPOD Books in the bookart realm ?? !!
  Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 12:15:23 -0400

  Hmmm, I going to have to weigh against here.

  They may be "Book Arts" in the same sense that glicee posters are
  "Prints". There is definitely room for them in the market but what
  are the advantages/disadvantages to them being called "art". If
  one can sign and number them and charge a elevated price with a
  little alteration (remember, Thomas Kinkade hand retouches his
  poster/ paintings to make them "art") then in my opinion buyer
  beware or at least understand the process. Do they in the end make
  my books more valuable then to a educated buyer and how many of
  those are left?

  Are artist books about content or form or function? I think the
  later two mostly. Fine press books ideally contain all three where
  the craftsperson has hands on direct control over every element of
  the creation process and whose only limitations are of skill level
  and tools, not over what formats are supported by a service bureau.

  Finally, let's consider the archival nature of these things if
  that's a concern to you at all.

  There's room for SPOD but not in the same realm I hope. Will there
  be book art shows that will have to exclude such books like fine
  art shows exclude glicee prints?

  I like the idea of doing a SPOD book as the 2nd edition to a "real"
  artists book and selling it at a considerably reduced price as a
  affordable reproduction but then there is no attempt at calling it
  something it's not.

  Intriguing question though and it'll be an interesting discussion
  here to say the least.

  Chad Pastotnik
  Deep Wood Press 231.587.0506

  On Sep 17, 2008, at 8:27 PM, Jim Karr wrote:

  > As a photographer the only mass press-printed books I'd consider
  > are those printed by the photo labs that are calibrated more for
  > photography. I don't do plain text, which is huge difference in
  > the way I look at this topic. For pure ART books, I can't see
  > a lot of these sites competing. However, I've only used Blurb.
  > I heard for photos/art that LuLu was more appropriate.
  > That's my $.02. Back to my real art binding I go. :)
  > philip zimmermann wrote:
  >> Of course self-published, on demand books can be artists' books.
  >> There are already many examples out there. Keith Smith, Scott
  McCarney and
  >> Clifton Meador have all done many books using lulu.com
  >> Clif has an excellent essay on using lulu to make artists' book.
  Go to :
  >> http://stores.lulu.com/cliftonmeador
  >> Clif sells his books directly through lulu.com. Keith and Scott
  sell theirs
  >> after having the printing done by lulu and then later in the
  >> rebinding them.
  >> Visual Studies Workshop Press long ago switched from offset
  lithography to
  >> HP Indigo printing, which is just a slightly different form of on-
  >> publishing, since quantities as low as one can be printed once the
  book has
  >> been digitally set up and approved, and all settings saved.
  >> My artists' book classes are using Blurb.com
  >> -Phil Zimmermann
  >> On 9/17/08 9:25 AM, you wrote:
  >> Laura
  >> An extremely interesting set of questions I have not had any
  >> SPOD books made
  >> but have given serious consideration to the possibility.
  >> I had not considered them within the realm of OEbookart¹ or
  >> OEartists books¹
  >> But it could be a possibility especially if one were to make ones
  >> slipcase or container and to amend them to include fold out
  sections and so
  >> on.
  >> I would really like to hear peoples responses on this.
  >> My initial thoughts were oh no they are not handmade so cant
  really be
  >> considered but for someone like me who is not the most gifted in
  terms of
  >> craftsmanship and someone to whom the content would be more my
  >> ................
  >> Lets see what people think.
  >> Aine
  >> Very rarely says anything on this book arts network !!
  >> . . . . . . . . . . .
  >> Philip Zimmermann
  >> h : 5467 E. Placita Del Mesquite
  >> Tucson AZ 85712
  >> w : Visual Communications
  >> College of Fine Arts
  >> School of Art
  >> University of Arizona
  >> P. O. Box 210002 | 1031 N. Olive St.
  >> Tucson AZ 85721
  >> h : 520 395 1378
  >> c : 845 282 2665
  >> w : 520 626 0627
  >> pzim@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  >> pbz3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  >> . . . . . . . . . . .
  >> ***********************************************
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